Episode 10

Lifelong Lessons for Learners

with Gary Bisbee, Ph.D.

December 21, 2021

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Gary Bisbee, Ph.D.
Founder, Chairman, and CEO, Think Medium

Dr. Gary Bisbee’s leadership positions have spanned Wall Street, academia, health policy and entrepreneurial ventures. He is Founder, Chairman and CEO of Think Medium, which explores learning and leadership through peer-to-peer conversations.

He is a frequent speaker and facilitator for executives and boards of directors. Gary is well published and he most recently co-authored, n=1: How the Uniqueness of Each Individual is Transforming Healthcare. His weekly video/audio podcast, The Gary Bisbee Show, pursues his interests in learning and leadership and features guests of significant accomplishment.

He has been a founder or leader of five venture companies. Most recently, he was Co-founder, Chairman and CEO of The Health Management Academy. He has been a member of multiple public and not-for-profit boards, and he currently sits on four boards, including Cerner Corporation. He is an advisor to investment funds.

Gary holds an M.B.A. in finance and healthcare from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, and a Ph.D. in chronic disease epidemiology from Yale University, where his dissertation was part of the development of DRGs. His undergraduate degree is from North Central College.


As the leader of a company, you need to treat every person as a leader in whatever role they're in. If you treat them that way, you define their role that way. It pays great dividends for the company.



Nathan Bays 0:28
Hey, good afternoon, Gary. How are you?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 0:31
I’m well, Nathan, thank you. Good afternoon to you.

Nathan Bays 0:34
Well, thanks so much for joining. This is going to be a real treat to interview you. Typically, you’re on the other side of the mic interviewing others. So it’s a great pleasure for me to have the opportunity to interview you today.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 0:46
Thank you. I think I might like it better actually asking the questions. We’ll try it out. Well,

Nathan Bays 0:52
Well, I don’t know if I can fill your shoes. But we’ll give it a shot. We’ll give it a shot.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 0:57
You’ll do great.

Nathan Bays 0:58
Yeah, for all of our guests joined here, obviously by Gary Bisbee. Gary is the co-founder and chairman of Think Medium. Many guests may know him from previous postings, including most recently as a co-founder, CEO, and chairman of the Health Management Academy. But Gary, what a lot of probably listeners will not know is, going back, you’ve been an entrepreneur for your entire career or most of your career, I should say.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 1:22
Yep, most of it.

Nathan Bays 1:23
But going back even beyond that, tell us a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up? And what were some of those early forces that really shaped your view of the world and really helped form your entrepreneurial spirit?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 1:34
It’s interesting when you look back on it. My dad was a minister, which it turns out was a very important part of my life for a variety of different reasons. I grew up primarily in Duluth, Minnesota, spent some time before that in Boston, but went to junior high school and high school in Duluth. My main goal in those days was athletics. I played all sports, but was a hockey player, played for a couple years at University of Minnesota Duluth before I hurt my knee. But I also was learning at my dad’s knee how to run a church. And most people probably don’t think of ministers as business people or as entrepreneurs, but he really was. And so although I didn’t believe the way he believed and wouldn’t have been a good minister from that standpoint, from the standpoint of learning about business, and how you run a church, and how you meet people, and what they actually want, that was a very formative part of my life. following education, then went on to pursue singing, actually, and I was an opera singer for several years Nathan. You know that. Most people don’t. I was an opera singer for several years and that worked out to be really an enjoyable part of my life. I learned a lot of lessons about people. And the primary one is you have to sing what people want to hear, not necessarily what you want to sing.

Nathan Bays 3:07
If you want to get paid, right?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 3:09
Right. That principle has guided me pretty much throughout my life, actually.

Nathan Bays 3:14
Yeah. Well, that’s interesting. I’m sure many people don’t know that about you, at least from your background as an opera singer. But tell us a little bit more about education, kind of when you moved from singing or deciding that the longevity of an opera singer was not something that was in the cards for you and how you moved into the business world.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 3:34
Yeah, for sure. Another important part about what my dad offered me was, as a minister, the CEO of the local hospital was in our church. And there was an interesting position in that hospital for high school kids, and it was being a wall washer in a hospital. Typically, there were eight doctors’ kids that were in that position, but during the time I was in high school, it was seven doctors’ kids and a preacher’s kid. And so I learned, over the course of three summers, a lot about healthcare, and made up my mind right then that I was going to be in healthcare. I wasn’t particularly interested in being a hospital administrator, but I loved healthcare and decided I was going to be there. I ended up did working in hospitals after opera singing for a while, and medical center hospitals, and I learned a lot as you might imagine, wanted to get a business degree, went off to Wharton and got my degree in finance and healthcare. And then it was an interesting time for me because I’d always wanted to go to Wall Street and learn finance, but I realized that if I was going to stay in healthcare, I really needed a clinical degree to go along with the business degree, just to understand all about healthcare and the delivery of healthcare. So I went to Yale to get a Ph.D. in chronic disease epidemiology, unremarkable other than I was basically told by the Director of Graduate Studies that my dissertation needed to be part of the development of DRGs. And it was something I wanted to do anyway. But there I learned about data and learned about grouping data and clinical data and financial data and so on. And that was very formative to the rest of my life. And it also taught me about health policy, particularly because when Congress was contemplating passing the DRG legislation, they wanted somebody from Yale to come down and testify and talk to the staff and so on. And since I was a junior faculty member, and none of the senior faculty members wanted to do that, I was elected. So I spent a fair amount of time in Washington for two, three years. And that was also a very formative part of my life, really understanding much more about health policy.

Nathan Bays 6:05
Well, so I know, on this show, on Day Zero, we obviously focus on founders and their founding experience in the background and try to develop lessons for other founders. When you look at your educational background, which is just absolutely top notch, going to Wharton and receiving an MBA, and then Yale with a Ph.D. Was one of those two experiences more formative in kind of setting the arc of your career trajectory, or were they both equally formative just in different ways?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 6:39
I think the latter point. I feel that, what I learned in graduate school, was really less about the coursework and more about the model. And so I learned a management model at Wharton and I learned a clinical model at Yale, and I’ve used both of those for the rest of my life in healthcare. So I don’t think one was more important than the other. Once I did really focus on becoming an entrepreneur, I did realize that I needed some financial experience, and so went to Wall Street for six or eight years. That was very formative. And so once I had a management degree, the clinical degree, and then my Wall Street experience, I really felt I was ready to go. And that kind of was what jump started my career as an entrepreneur.

Nathan Bays 7:36
Well, that’s a great transition. So where did you move? You received your Ph.D. and you worked at Yale for a few years, and the HA at the trust. You went to Wall Street, but then after you left Wall Street, that’s when you had your first real entrepreneurial experience. Maybe share a little bit about that with the listeners.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 7:54
I had an interesting situation when I was at Kidder Peabody on Wall Street in that a gentleman came in to conduct the financing for a very interesting project, which is he had a small publicly traded company in the orthopedic space and he wanted to merge it or reverse merge it into a nonprofit company, and it was a transaction that was too small for Kidder, but I found it to be pretty interesting. And so we ended up basically agreeing, and I left Kidder and became the CEO of this small company and conducted the transaction in what now is Hanger Orthopedic Group, which is a multi billion dollar company. And that was really my first experience. I liked that transaction, wasn’t sure that business was the right business for me, but then had an opportunity to basically found Apache Medical Systems, which was an outcomes company for critical care patients, large databases, and so on. And that really was much more kind of where I wanted to go. So I left Hanger, went to Apache, and we ran that, grew that, and ultimately sold it. That was my first two entrepreneurial experiences.

Nathan Bays 9:23
So making that jump, particularly let’s spend a second on Hanger and just that first experience really diving headfirst into the deep end of the pool, so to speak, from an entrepreneurial perspective. What were some of the key lessons that you learned from that first experience that you were able to apply to later experiences?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 9:43
Hanger fundamentally, during the time I was there, and after I left, was a consolidation play. So it was consolidating orthotics and prosthetics practices. And I learned a lot about people and learned the fact that, when people owned a business and grew the business, they felt very strongly about the business. And so that gave me a lot of sense that dealing with people, in one way or another, was going to be a critical part of my life as an entrepreneur. And I carried that into Apache, and then with Apache, it was really dealing with physicians in large medical centers. And there was just enough of Apache, since it was a predictive model as well as a real time data reporting model. But it would predict life expectancy in the ICU. So that pulled us into the whole ethics end of the business. So dealing with physicians and dealing with ethicists of one kind or another, and health systems, I think made more possible because of my early experiences at Hanger, where I was dealing with people that had a very strong vested interest in their own business.

Nathan Bays 11:03
Share a little bit with us about Apache, and then what came next, which was an organization that you spent a significant portion of your career with, 20 plus years from founding to exit, which was the Health Management Academy. So talk a little bit about the founding of that company, where kind of the idea for that came from and that journey.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 11:26
So, Apache was very interesting, in that a team of four, two physicians, a Ph.D. and a nurse, a team of four people connected to George Washington University, had created the Apache methodology. This was a methodology that fundamentally classed patients in terms of how critically ill they were, and it was their kind of next step to create a database so that they could bounce any given patient against that database and thereby develop a prediction about life expectancy. And so I came around right at that time, and the company was created, and we grew it but the key there really had to deal with physicians, had to deal with Chief Medical Officers, had to deal with health system and large academic medical center leadership. And that was a springboard into founding the academy. Sherry Jones, my co-founder at the Health Management Academy, had been the VP of Sales and Marketing at Apache. So obviously, we knew each other well. And when we sold Apache, then we decided to found the Academy. And the idea there was to create a peer group of individuals that were similar in terms of the kind of role they played in the health systems. And large health systems were relatively new at that point, having more or less just been created. So we decided to create a Chief Medical Officer forum, as we called it, and that was wildly successful, much to our delight. And so we created another forum for Chief Financial Officers, and on and on and on. So the Academy was a convening organization and the idea was for executives of large health systems to learn from each other. And then you came along about 10 years after we have founded the Academy, and of course, you led our whole health policy effort and really did a terrific job building up the thought leadership side of what we did there. So the organization was both a convening organization with executives learning from each other and the company providing thought leadership. We ended up selling that company in a transaction that was, we thought, the right thing to do at that stage in the company’s life and the new management team led by Renee DeSilva is doing a terrific job. So we felt comfortable with the transaction with Welsh Carson Anderson & Stowe, a large private equity firm.

Nathan Bays 14:15
Yeah, well, it’s exciting. Well, certainly, it was an exciting time for me, a fun time to be a part of the organization, and to see the growth, and to work with you and Sherry, and all the other great co-workers and colleagues at the Academy. But I think that gets to kind of an interesting point. As a show that’s really focused on entrepreneurs and their experience, one of the things that I think about as it relates to some of the more entrepreneurial endeavors that I’ve had and talking to friends who are entrepreneurs is, when you have an idea, you know, what is the mental model that you go through to say, is this a good idea? Is it a bad idea? How do you vet it? Obviously, being within an industry, you were in healthcare at Apache, so we’ll use the Academy example. You know, you knew healthcare. You came up through healthcare. Your academic background was in healthcare. Your professional background had been in healthcare in different places, finance and academia. And you’d had the Hanger experience, then the Apache experience. So what model did you use when you were thinking about the academy? How did you know that was going to be a good idea? “Did you know” is probably a better question that there was going to be an idea that worked when you started the organization. And maybe talk a little bit about that and that framework of how you think about that.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 15:27
It’s a very good question. I’ve started five companies in one way or another. So I’ve been through this before. I’ve probably had 20 ideas, Nathan, and you and I have talked about a lot of them. So how do you conclude where the right idea is to pursue? And I think I’ve always had an instinct, and I’ve gone with my instincts. I think that’s very important, for me, at least. And the second thing I do is, I really think it’s important to listen to people who will be customers, or just have a really good view of the landscape. And so before I start something, before we started the Academy, we probably talked to 50 people, 50 doctors primarily, or other kinds of executives that we thought would be interested in the Academy. And we received a lot of positive feedback, it seemed like it really was going to be a good idea. We modeled out the finances. And we said, why not? And so that’s the way that one went. Some of the follow-on ideas have been a little trickier in that the business models weren’t as obvious as the Academy business model was. And so when you have to kind of decide, is this a good idea, at the same time you’re trying to make the business model work, that can be a little challenging. There is a willingness to accept risk that entrepreneurs have that others don’t. And I’ve talked to a lot of people with great ideas and have suggested, why don’t you go start the company? It’s a great idea. And they said, no, we just, I just don’t have that risk tolerance to do it. So I think a lot of it is, one, just what’s your instinct? Two, listen to other people that could have good views of it or might be customers. And then, three, you just have to be willing to tolerate the risk. And at that point, it’s time to hop on a sliding board and down you go.

Nathan Bays 17:40
Yeah, very insightful. And I think that one of the key takeaways from that is, I think that a lot of entrepreneurs, or potential entrepreneurs or founders, will talk to people about their idea. They’ll say, is this a good idea? A bad idea? What do you think? But, that nuance of really starting with your potential customers, at least, if not exclusively, but certainly as a large subset of the group that you’re soliciting feedback from is really interesting. I would say that maybe some entrepreneurs do that, or some founders, but probably a lot just go to their network or go to very respected people, but not necessarily individuals who would be customers. In some ways, you’re kind of getting their buy in, or you’re receiving their buy in, to be a customer before you even ask for the order for them to join or to become one, you’re getting that buy in and building that momentum out of the gate.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 18:32
Whether it’s starting a new company or starting a product within a company, every time I haven’t paid attention to prospective customers, it just slowed down the progress. So I’ve learned that you just really have to do that. As you know, at the Academy, we started, who knows how many, 30 or 40 new products, probably, or services. And we didn’t start any of them without going to the customers and finding out if they thought it was a good idea. They don’t always know how to package it or what the model, business model, is. But they do know whether it makes sense to them as a service that they’d like to participate in.

Nathan Bays 19:13
Yeah, well, let me ask you, let’s shift a little bit. I think this is reflective of the Academy, but probably of all of your entrepreneurial and founding experiences. Let’s talk a little bit about the importance of listening to the customer. One of the things that I think you do really well, having worked with you, is listen to the customer. I’ve also heard many others that have worked with you say that, that you’re good at listening, you’re good at receiving that feedback, whether it’s good or bad. You’re good at taking that feedback and crafting it into something new and different. But, would love to hear you talk a little bit about, do you have a model for that? How do you think about that? Talk about it in the context of the Academy, but also Apache, or even Think Medium now, how you were taking that feedback, and the importance of that, and whether you have a model that you’d be willing to share with with others.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 19:57
I don’t know if this is formalized, as a model. It probably ought to be. My father was a really good listener. And he would listen to the parishioners in his church and then would act on that. And so I grew up with that kind of model and saw that it worked for him and just seemed to me to be a natural way to proceed. Maybe Nathan, if I was smarter, more creative, I wouldn’t have to talk to so many people, but I just always get good ideas from them, or I shape what I’m about to do through talking to these potential customers, or perhaps customers in other ways. So I think the main thing is, the more you gain input, and it’s not always going to be positive input, but the more you gain input, the more you can shape your thinking. It develops a certain amount of depth, develops richness. And I think, having learned from these various companies, Think Medium was interesting, because I knew I wanted to interview people. And I knew that that was primary research. So the question is, what do you do with that research. I also thought that leadership development, and education, and learning has always been part of my life, and that I really felt that there was a virtuous circle, so to speak, with the interviews where you can film them like we’re doing today. So it’s going to be on YouTube, it’s going to be audio, and Apple podcasts, or other podcasts, and there’s going to be written word. And if you can do those three, then I think you can create the right service mix for customers. Some people don’t want to watch it on YouTube, some people don’t want to listen to it. Some people may just want to read it, or you know, maybe they don’t want to read they want to watch. So if you can offer all three mediums, hence the name Think Medium, then I think you’re basically putting people in a position where they can consume what you’re doing in a way that they want to consume it. I view that as personalization. Again, personalization to me is basically a function of listening. I think it all comes from listening.

Nathan Bays 22:21
Yeah, yeah, that’s really important and makes a lot of sense. It’s simple, but it makes a lot of sense. Well, I would love to shift a little bit to your experiences, I would call it kind of, observing and advising other entrepreneurs, which you’ve done a fair amount of. You’ve been on, I don’t know how many, corporate boards, but many corporate boards of both public and private companies, not only in the healthcare IT space and knowledge services, but really across the board. When you shift from kind of your founder entrepreneur hat and move into your advisor hat, which I’ll use that term broadly, but thinking about boards or other types of advisory engagements. What are some of the things that you look for in those that you’re working with? And how do you kind of judge them, and what is some of the advice that you give them from a statesman or an advisor position?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 23:12
First of all, I must say it was hard for me to make that transition because I’m an operator at heart, I just want to do it. And when you’re advising or on a board of directors, somebody else is going to do it and you’re there trying to figure out how to best provide guidance to them. I guess I’ve been on 10 or 11 boards and I think that they’re all different. And one of the key things I found about boards of directors is chemistry of a company and chemistry of a board is all important. And so I play a different role on every board I’ve been on. You know, some boards may require more of my IT expertise or more of a relationship with certain types of customers. But the point of the matter is, each one requires me to play a different role and I think that’s been very important in terms of the boards I’ve sat on. The second thing is obvious, but it’s not always well executed. And that is the difference between management and governance. And you just have to understand where that line is and be very, very dedicated to not going over that line as a board member. You can advise and there is certain information that you can provide, but you can’t operate. So you really need to not confuse the fact that governance means governance and management means management. That particular point I’ve applied to my advisory roles. So when I’m talking to a entrepreneur, somebody who’s leading a company, I’m pretty careful about doing advising. And that really gets to listening. So I find that you need to dig into the entrepreneur, dig into why they’re doing this, and what they’re thinking about, and what they’re trying to accomplish, and where they have anxieties, let’s say, and then you can provide advice that fits that particular individual at that particular time. Otherwise, you’re a bit of a bull in a china closet. To be good at advising, it needs to be pretty nuanced, pretty targeted, and it can change over time. You know, somebody might have a need this year, next year could be completely different. So, again, I think the governance work and the advising work is somewhat similar in that you’re not actually management, you’re either governance or advisor. And you really need to understand the difference between those two.

Nathan Bays 23:47
So for a founder, and this may be different based on the stage of the company, certainly will be different based on the sector or sub sector the company is in. But when you think about forming a board, particularly forming that first board, or that early board, presumptively you’ll have investors who are on that board. But when you’re looking at that from an entrepreneur or founders perspective, how should they think about forming that early board and growing the board? What are the competencies they should be looking for? And then how should they be thinking differently as the company, hopefully, knock on wood, grows and continues to mature? And how does that change?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 26:34
Yeah, that ladder point is really a good point. I had the good fortune of taking Cerner Corporation public when I was an investment banker, and Neil Patterson, one of the founders, and the CEO, asked me to sit on that board. I’ve been on a board for 30 years or so. So I was really part of and watching Neil, as a CEO, grow from nothing, basically, maybe $15 or $20 million, when I met him to $5 billion. And this question you’re asking is so important, which is, at various points in time in a company’s life, you need certain types of board members. And I watched Neil go through that. I’ve gone through that to a lesser degree, no company I’ve had has ever grown to be a multi billion dollar company, that’s for sure. But they have grown. And as they’ve grown, you really do need to think about board members, I find the most important characteristic of a good board member, and this won’t surprise you, is somebody that can listen and ask the right questions. And I found, as I have been the leader of companies, it’s amazing how the well placed question can just cause a complete change in how I’m thinking and how I can approach a particular problem or particular situation. So I think that really good board members are the ones that can kind of plug into the situation, kind of think along with you, and then ask the right question that’s going to really make a difference. Whether they’re an investor or an expert, in some particular area, I find is almost less important than that they can really feel where the company is, what the company needs, and then ask the right questions to help you react. Now you have to be smart enough to listen to what they’re asking, and then we work through the answers. But to me, that’s probably the most important characteristic of a board member.

Nathan Bays 28:41
Yeah. And with the caveat that there’s an exception to every rule, or maybe many exceptions to some rules, what do you think about size? Is there a size that is a good size? Is there too small or too big? How do you think about the right size of a board? And does that change? Or should it change as the company matures and grows?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 29:01
Yeah, I think, clearly, there can be too many people on the board because, if you have too many, it’s hard for them to focus. In fact I was just interviewing Jeff Immelt, the former CEO of GE, within the last several weeks and ended up asking him that same question, Nathan, and he was saying that, in the height of the financial crisis, that board had grown from, I believe, it was nine members to 18. And he said it was horrible because they just could not focus. They couldn’t develop camaraderie and there were just too many agendas. So I’ve always thought that less than 10 is the right number, at least for for any of my companies. Cerner has clipped along with about nine members for a number of years and that always felt like the right number to me. It allowed everybody to speak. It allowed everybody to play a role. It allowed them to buy into the strategy of the company. I know our large health systems, which started out as hospitals, many of them, and then they group together to form a health system. And for one reason or another, they ended up with more than 20. I think the average size 10, 15 years ago was 25 board members, and their average now is probably 15. So they’re working their way down. And I think if you ask most CEOs, they’d probably say they’d love to have 11 or even fewer board members. Now, if you’re an academic medical center where philanthropy is a huge part of the purpose of the board, then you’re going to end up with many more people, but the executive committees and that small group that really makes the decisions is probably much closer to nine or 10 people.

Nathan Bays 30:55
Thinking back across your entrepreneurial career, and founding five companies, as you’ve said, what are some of the key lessons learned? If you were sitting across the table from an individual that was getting ready to start a company, or had an idea and was thinking about, conceptually, should I do this or not, what are a few of the key takeaways from your experiences that you would love to share with that individual?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 31:18
You know, Drucker is the one that said the purpose of a company is to understand the value of your customer. And I think that is probably the key lesson in all of this. As we talked about, I’m interested in listening and find that to be a really important part of the way I approach things, but that is listening to really determine what the value is for the customer. And no matter what company I’ve been involved in, it really comes down to that. So if I’m advising an entrepreneur, I’m trying to ask questions in a way to have the entrepreneur continue to focus on answering that question, what is the value of the customer? And then how can we best answer it? What I found, as the leader of a company that starts out with a couple of employees and then grows, is every person in that company has to be a leader in whatever role they’re in. And I find that, if people that are running, leading small companies, they don’t always get that point. And I think it’s so important that, if you’ve got two people, five people, 10 people, or 200 people in a company, everybody really needs to be a leader. And if you treat them that way, and you define their role that way, I think it just pays great dividends for the company. Out of all of the work that I’ve done in this space, I think those are probably the two key points. I mean, there’s obviously a lot of questions about finance, and investing, and valuation, and how do you get an introduction, and how do you position what you’re doing and all that is obviously vitally important. But to me, determining the value for the customer, it starts with that, and then having everybody in the company believe that they’re a leader of that company, those are probably the two key takeaways for me.

Nathan Bays 33:23
Before we wrap up, tell us a little bit about Think Medium. So this is your newest endeavor, the newest company that that you founded. Tell us a little bit about Think Medium, and what the plans are for it, and where you want it to go. And you may not know what it would look like in four or five years. But if you do look into your crystal ball, how do you see the company looking three, four, five years out?

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 33:43
Well, let’s start with what Think Medium is meant to be and then maybe we can work out a few years. I just felt that executives today are so busy and they need to engage in learning about leadership, the younger ones in particular, but even those that are more experienced. And so I wanted to see, how could you provide information to them that was efficient, and personalized, and shaped for their kind of view of learning. And so the idea of Think Medium is to interview individuals that have some similarity, and then see what we can learn from them, explore their thinking. So we started with Her Story, which is basically women interviewing other women and the focus is again on leadership. It’s primarily healthcare and what lessons can you learn from each other. That defines the smaller group, the audience, clearly directed at women, although I think 30%, 35% of the audience are actually men. We’re trying to provide a opportunity for women to share their views about leadership. And then the second show is is the Gary Bisbee Show. And the purpose there is to interview senior executives, CEOs, authors, others. And again, it’s all about learning. And we believe in people in several mediums, people being able to look at it, listen to it, and then read. And then there are several other shows. One of them is Day Zero, which is interviewing entrepreneurs, primarily healthcare, but broadening out to include other areas. If we can use these interviews as our primary research and then develop thought leadership out of that so there’s a creative approach to learning, I’ll be very happy. So four or five years from now, I think we’ll have more shows, I think we’ll have opportunities for people to learn. We won’t be convening people like the Health Management Academy does, that’s not in the cards here. But providing information about leadership and learning and really trying to help people realize their potential is what we’re about.

Nathan Bays 36:15
Well, it’s exciting. All the shows are exciting. Her Story was just a fabulous show. And of course, we all love the Gary Bisbee Show. And it’s exciting to be a part of Day Zero and to interview you for for that. I think this has been fantastic. A couple of the things that you discussed, Gary, really hit home for me, the first being, when you’re founding a company, to make sure everyone feels like they’re a leader and that they have a role and an important role. And I think that’s so important. I obviously experienced that at the Academy and I think that was important there. But it’s such a great piece of advice for entrepreneurs and for founders everywhere. And then I think, of course, just listening. We all know that it’s something we should do. But I feel like so often, we don’t do it or don’t do it as well, or as often as we should. So just great pieces of advice for founders and entrepreneurs and potential founders, and for those who are just curious and just wanted to hear your story and to listen. So thanks so much for joining today. This has been fantastic and we’ll have to do it again. We’ve got lots of stories we didn’t tell, so we’ll have to reserve some time. They may not make the cut for one of the shows, but they’re certainly good for a drink or for a cocktail.

Gary Bisbee, Jr. 37:26
That’s right. We have a lot of stories, some we can share publicly, some of which we won’t. But it’s great to be together with you again, Nathan, and have you as part of the team here. We’re all excited about it. So welcome aboard.

Nathan Bays 37:41
Yeah, likewise, it’s exciting, and it’ll be fun. Well, thanks again, Gary and we’ll look forward to the upcoming episodes with others.

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